Under The Umbra Ep 03 – Empathy Part 2 of 2

In this episode, we’re discussing Empathy! This is part 2 of 5. The next episodes will be about Collaboration, and…...

In this episode, we’re discussing Empathy!

This is part 2 of 5. The next episodes will be about Collaboration, and you can listen to episode 02 for the intro to warm and cold empathy as a combination of abilities.

The Co-Host is Kiki and you can find her work here: Instagram: @heretic.homestead and TikTok @heretichomestead


  • 0:00:00 Intro
  • 0:01:06 Resources to go deeper, resources mentioned in the show
  • 0:01:26 Rethinking Narcissism by Dr. Craig Malkin (Libro.FM link) (Bookshop.org link)
  • 0:02:40 What Happened to You? by Dr. Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey (Libro.fm link) (Bookshop.org link)
  • 0:03:13 This is Criminal Podcast Episode 51 Money Tree (and also the sister podcast This Is Love)
  • 0:03:36 Schema Therapy and DBT/Dialectical Behavior Therapy
  • 0:05:09 Upcoming show summary: People who understand that warm empathy takes effort for some folks in their community can offer support for the process by helping to get them resources or assisting them in hacking the outcome of warm empathy, but providing support to people who have a hard time thinking of others’ needs can also take energy and can be a cause of harm
  • 0:05:48 But before the show starts, I have to soothe how I lie awake at night asking myself, Why Did I Say That? Manipulation. Caring. Limited Domain and Comparison doesn't have to be a value judgment.
  • 0:12:42 OMG did I mention I talk a lot? anyway... Transition into the show
  • 0:13:04 Insight and Empathy? Is it too scary to look in an insight mirror when you think you're an alien? Does having insight mean you are no longer challenged?
  • 0:18:55 Azula from AtLAB and acceptance of labels of "wrongness" versus tolerating the self-interrogation and big feelings and getting through fatigue needed for interpersonal growth.
  • 0:22:37 The Hope of this entire podcast, Under the Umbra, is that if we - societally- can recognize empathy-challenged and non-collaborative behaviors and underresourced people/situations, then many people can intervene. Harm-reduction as the Ethic/Value.
  • 0:26:28 Someone, call 9-1-1 and help this person think of others' wellbeing! Wait, who is Someone? Is Someone the traumatized person? Or can Someone be a person with fewer stakes?
  • 0:29:28 There is no requirement to turn the other cheek if it means you're cheek is slapped over and over again. If you have resources, step up. But if you have the spidey-sense Trauma-Vision recognition because your own trauma is re-activated, then you can tap out.
  • 0:32:47 Another source of resource is when you have trauma-vision but it isn't your trauma, so you can "cross-train" and have more capacity to provide accommodations.
  • 0:36:00 It's possible to create safe environment to help folks with low warm empathy to bring it forth or find a workaround.
  • 0:36:54 Step 1 - Have words for things; Step 2 - See when it's happening; Step 3 - Tally resources; Step 3.5 - s it my job? then do the job, and if not? refer or tap out; Step 4 - Continue to analyze steps 1-4
  • 0:37:28 Some empathy-challenged non-collaborative situations we cannot just escape (e.g. white supremacy) so what tools do we have to Survive while calling out and then undermining/transforming that system, instead?
  • 0:38:11 final thoughts, and teaser for Collaboration
  • 0:38:48 Outro and credits
This is Under the Umbra: Using Empathy and Collaboration to Navigate a World of Shadows. In each episode, Electra and the co-hosts explore ways to think about and plan for difficult relationships with people and systems in a way that stays grounded in values and centers community. I invite you to try out focusing on Empathy and Collaboration as a realistic and compassionate model for interpersonal interactions. If you find yourself Under the Umbra, let’s find our way back to the light.

Find the show's home right here, Under The Umbra .info!

Support the show via Patreon.com/UnderTheUmbraPodcast

This show is brought to you by Bridge to Becoming, LLC. Music is by SoulProdMusic on Pixabay and used with permission. Under the Umbra Podcast logo is by Lo Carter.

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